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Greetings! First, you have a terrific blog, keep up the good work! I'm just an undergrad who is minoring in philosophy, so a lot of your posts are a little over my head, but I try to follow along when I can.
Footnotes to Plato from the foothills of the Superstition Mountains
From the mailbag:
Greetings! First, you have a terrific blog, keep up the good work! I'm just an undergrad who is minoring in philosophy, so a lot of your posts are a little over my head, but I try to follow along when I can.
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I think this might be a good place to ask a more fundamental question: Is there any reason to accept such a thing as first principles that are somehow self-evident in themselves (or some other starting point for reasoning)? This seems to me to be beneath the surface of the question. If there were first principles, we could presumably deduce from those the existence of a God, etc. A couple of weeks ago, I think you posted on that.
It is not enough that there be first principles, they would also have to be such that one could deduce from them substantive conclusions. The laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction are first principles, but one cannot derive a substantive conclusion such as the existence of God from them.
The strange notion that one can do so is one of the points I was hammering Rand & Co. on. In fact, they quite absurdly think one can infer the nonexistence of God from first principles such as ‘A is A.’
There are first principles for more particular inquiries. The four Aristotelian causes are first principles in a non-propositional order. One could not really infer the existence of God from non-contradiction alone, but insert some other universal principles (such as the reality of change) and you can go quite far. I assume, then, that you disagree that the other non-propositional principles can be established?
Why did you change your handle?
I don’t know what you mean by a non-propositional principle. That change is real is a proposition.
Bill—
I find your argument for the apparently substantive thesis that there are no rationally compelling arguments for substantive theses to be rationally uncompelling. This puts me in the awkward and slightly embarrassing predicament of seeming to prove its conclusion by merit of being inclined to reject it as uncompelling.
I wonder if I might pose some questions in the hope of clarifying this issue (and, if you check my own blog, you’ll see I am coming from an unabashedly dogmatic viewpoint in some respects; if I can be called a philosopher, I would first be called a Christian, and I hope you won’t hold that against me):
1. You say that “we need premises that are self-justifying in the sense that they are justified, but not justified by anything external to themselves. Such propositions could be said to be self-evident.” With this I agree; but as you go on to point out, self-evidence enjoys both a subjective and an objective state, and it’s difficult to see that the objective state is available to us. This being so, is it not possible that there are objectively self-evident facts which nonetheless may be regarded as subjectively not self-evident by any number of people?
2. Apropos (1), if some proposition, O, is a self-justifying proposition, then it is an objectively self-evident proposition. In this capacity, does it not legitimately function as a first principle, even if it is subjectively disbelieved by some person, S?
3. Is it reasonable to say that if S has cognitive faculties which are capable of apprehending objective facts, then given the nature of O as objectively self-evident, S ought to believe O if S is to be rational?
4. I suppose how you answer (3) depends on what view of rationality you’re taking. But is it not the case as regards O that rational beliefs are best defined as ones which accurately reflect the way reality is? Is it not the case that a doxastic system which perfectly reflects the actual world is maximally rational, while doxastic systems which imperfectly reflect it are irrational, and progressively so to the extent that they are progressively imperfect? I don’t intend to deny the existence of subjectively rational beliefs—the insane person who believes her head is made of glass may believe so rationally on an internalist view (cf Plantinga in Warranted Christian Belief etc). Nonetheless, in regards to objective states of affairs, we would seem to be quite within our rights to say that her belief is irrational. It seems to me that subjectively rational beliefs may nonetheless be objectively irrational; it is objective states of affairs which ultimately provide the basis for deciding rationality from irrationality.
5. Given this, it seems reasonable to formulate the following statement about rationality, assuming that rationality is possible (ie, assuming that our cognitive faculties are capable of forming accurate beliefs about reality):
R: for some objectively self-justifying proposition, O, a person S is actually rational in his belief about O only if he believes O.
This allows for subjective rationality inasmuch as we can formulate the fairly broad, related statement:
R*: for some objectively self-justifying proposition, O, a person S is apparently rational in his belief about O only if he disbelieves O for subjectively good reasons.
This leads me (finally) to the issue of what is rationally compelling. It seems to me that O ought to be rationally compelling if our cognitive faculties are functioning properly. When I say “functioning properly” I am obviously speaking in a fairly extensive sense, such that I am assuming at least (i) our cognitive faculties, when they are used without error or malfunction, actually do always produce beliefs which reflect objective states of affairs; (ii) we are always using them without error; (iii) they never malfunction. (Under some views, I can see (ii) and (iii) being regarded as synonymous.) Thus, if our cognitive faculties are functioning properly, we will never have formed any irrational (ie, objectively false) beliefs which we hold for subjectively good reasons, but which function as defeaters for O. Moreover, if it is possible that we are aware of O at all, then if our cognitive faculties are functioning properly, we will form the belief that O is true.
6. In light of this, I would ask: is it then reasonable to say that:
T: if some self-justifying proposition, O, obtains, then it is possible that O offers sufficient premises for rationally compelling arguments for substantive theses, provided that for some person, S, who is evaluating these arguments, S is actually being rational?
Regards,
Bnonn
Bnonn,
You misrepresent me somewhat. Note that I did NOT say either of the following:
A. There are NO compelling arguments for substantive theses.
B. My argument for there being few compelling arguments for substantive theses is a compelling argument.
1. “is it not possible that there are objectively self-evident facts which nonetheless may be regarded as subjectively not self-evident by any number of people?” It is possible. But how do you know that what you are claiming is objectively self-evident is indeed such? That’s the problem.
To discuss this concretely, you need to give examples of propositions you deem to be objectively self-evident. And it would help if you propose an argument that you consider compelling. Then we will have something definite to discuss.
Bill, my apologies. You did indeed not say that there are no compelling arguments for substantive theses; I read you as saying this inasmuch as you appeared to be saying that there are no compelling arguments for the substantive thesis which primarily interests me: namely that God exists. My mistake. I also agree that you didn’t claim that your argument was compelling; neither did I mean to imply that you did. Nonetheless, I found this fact ironic, if not paradoxical, as noted above.
Having considered this issue further since yesterday, I think I may have erred in proposing that rationally compelling _arguments_ can be made for substantive theses. In fact, I think my observations regarding rationally compelling _propositions_ casts significant doubt on the possibility of such arguments. When I consider theses which might be taken as substantive, they all seem to be the sorts of propositions one takes as brute facts. This being the case, it’s hard to see how one would then argue for them in a compelling fashion.
Take for instance the proposition, M, that “other minds exist”. I think it’s reasonable to characterize this as a substantive thesis, since if other minds don’t exist then my (I cannot say “our”) understanding of a basic aspect of reality is fundamentally wrong. Now, I take M to be a rationally compelling proposition; that is, I believe that M is objectively true in such a way that a person whose cognitive faculties are functioning properly will naturally form the belief that it is true. But when I consider how I would _argue_ for M, it becomes obvious that any such argument would only be rationally compelling if I am already predisposed to believe M. Such arguments would borrow their power of rational compulsion from M itself (or so it seems to me). A person suffering some kind of mental disorder, who believes that other people are a fantasy within his own mind, will find such arguments thoroughly unconvincing, since they will be evaluated on the basis of his belief that not-M.
This isn’t to say, necessarily, that I’m giving up on the idea of rationally compelling arguments. But I think, having considered it, that you’re probably right to observe that there are “hardly any” for substantive theses. There are, for example, certainly _reasons_ to believe the substantive thesis, G, that God exists (which I take to be a kind of M, though also the grounds for M); but I would take the thesis itself to be a rationally compelling proposition in the sense that it is like O in my previous comment: objectively self-justifying, and thus self-evident to anyone who is thinking maximally rationally. (I think this is actually what the Bible itself teaches; cf, for instance, Psalms 14 and 19.)
Given this, while reasons may be given for believing G, the best defense of it would appear to be in showing (i) that any view under which G is necessarily false is itself necessarily false or irrational; and (ii) that G itself is rational.
My apologies if this is rather tangential to your original point. I know you asked me to offer what I believe to be a compelling argument for a substantive thesis. But having considered the matter, I don’t think I can do that (:
Regards,
Bnonn
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