Footnotes to Plato from the foothills of the Superstition Mountains

Holes, Hosts, and Guests

Some of you are confusing holes with 'guests.'  You have to be able distinguish them on the notional or intensional plane to be able  to identify them on the real or extensional plane should you find reasons to do so.

I gave the example of a piece of Swiss cheese. It has holes in it. I argued that (i) holes are spatiotemporal particulars and that (ii) holes exist. I then asked whether holes are material or immaterial. My motive for posing this strange question was to see if there are any decisive (discussion-ending, philosophically dispositive) counterexamples to the materialist thesis  that all and only material items exist. Holes are candidate counterexamples: they exist and they are apparently immaterial. To understand how a hole could be a counterexample to materialism, however, you must not confuse a hole with its 'guest.' 

Let H be a hole in a piece of Swiss cheese. The piece of cheese is the host. Without it, that very piece of cheese, H, that very hole, cannot exist. (This is a much stronger claim than the claim that Swiss cheese holes cannot exist without Swiss cheese.) That makes the hole an 'ontological parasite' of the host entity, and thus analogous to an Aristotelian accident inhering in an Aristotelian primary substance.  The guest is the contingent occupant or filling of the hole, the air in H for example. 

Bro Joe comments,

Holes in Swiss cheese are CO2 gas bubbles; after you cut the cheese, they are air pockets. So, they qualify as "things." This discussion eventually involves the question of vacuums; but even outer space is not empty, there is a low density of hydrogen and helium out there, and that is even before the consideration of fields; the magnetic field, and the electrical field extend there as well. (There is one of each field in the entire universe as far as we know).

If Joe means 'material things' by 'things,' then he illustrates the confusion I mentioned. The hole in a doughnut has the doughnut as the host and air (or water or coffee, etc.) as the guest.  

So the hole is not the same as the 'guest.' The hole is what it is whatever the filling. The holes in a piece of cheese submerged in water are filled with water, not air. Since a hole is what it is whatever the filling or guest, the hole is not identical to its filling.  It is at least conceivable that the hole have no filling whatsoever. If that is possible, then the hole is 'no thing,' nothing, a particular 'piece' of nonbeing. (This possibility, please note, does not straightaway follow from the conceivability.)

I suppose one could argue that while it is contingent which type of occupant  a hole has, it must as a matter of metaphysical necessity have some occupant or other.  Holes are spatiotemporal particulars; such particulars are in spacetime; there are fields in every region of spacetime (electromagnetic, gravitational, and what all else); ergo, every hole is occupied or filled or has a guest, which is to say, every hole is material. 

Is the argument I just gave rationally coercive? It is assuming that time can be assimilated to space so as to form the four-dimensional manifold, spacetime. Reasonable objections can be raised against this construct, useful as it is in physics. And what about the premise that there are fields in every region of spacetime? Is that objectively self-evident? Is it not conceivable that there are holes in fields, and thus regions of spacetime without fields?

Now we are in deep, and it's time for a nap.  I leave you to ponder Lao Tzu:

Tao Te Ching – Lao Tzu – chapter 11

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there;
Usefulness from what is not there.

(translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

Note the tacit identification of holes with ('pieces' of) nonbeing. 

Aporetic dyad:

Holes exist.

Holes are 'pieces' of nonbeing.


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17 responses to “Holes, Hosts, and Guests”

  1. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    Let us then say that a hole is a compound physical entity, requiring a host and a filling.
    Is this a new philosophical class of being?

  2. Dmitri Avatar
    Dmitri

    Hi Bill
    We are in deep waters indeed. The distinctions you pointed at are useful. But I don’t think that following their lead changes the fact that there are various interpretative approaches to the issue at hand. A knock down argument eluded the brightest for millennia for a reason.
    Excellent post ending with a beautiful verse from Tao Te Ching. I think this translation is more fitting the discussion though:
    Thirty spokes join together in the hub.
    It is because of what is not there that the cart is useful.
    Clay is formed into a vessel.
    It is because of its emptiness that the vessel is useful.
    Cut doors and windows to make a room.
    It is because of its emptiness that the room is useful.
    Therefore, what is present is used for profit.
    But it is in absence that there is usefulness.
    Bolding mine. Source: here

  3. BV Avatar
    BV

    Joe sez:
    >>Let us then say that a hole is a compound physical entity, requiring a host and a filling.<< But then you are solving the problem by stipulative definition, which is not a philosophically kosher move.

  4. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    Viewed from my architect viewpoint, the useful absence of the doorway was there before the wall was there, and so the doorway also can be seen as the “quitting-of-the building-of” the wall, which is a non-action located in the past; and so it can be said that there are infinite numbers of doorways everywhere, but that walls cancel a few of them.
    Have fun with this, O fine thinkers, who, I am sure, outrun me in the philosophy department.

  5. BV Avatar
    BV

    Dmitri,
    Thanks for the alternative translation. Not knowing Chinese (although given how things are going I fear I may have to learn it), I cannot adjudicate between the two renderings.
    The second translation does seem better at presenting the problem of nonbeing.
    A collateral issue of some importance is that of translation itself. It is surely not sufficient, when translating a philosopher, to be a master of the language translated from; indeed it is not even necessary. It is more important to understand philosophy and how the one the one being translated thinks. I can competently sight-translate Hegel and Heidegger and the whole lot of German philosophers despite my lack of fluency in conversational German.

  6. Dmitri Avatar
    Dmitri

    Bill
    I agree with your point about translations. I brought the version I was familiar with as it felt closer to what we were discussing. I don’t know Chinese and can’t assess the relative closeness of these versions to the source or to its ideas. But I did read a few versions of Tao Te Ching and have two of them in my library. On a side note, the recent version by Benjamin Hoff of The Tao of Pooh fame, is supposed to be a result of his long work and a philosophically and historically inspired translation. Although the author is a life long American student of Taoism, his version did not work for me poetically or otherwise.
    On another side note, I believe that Tao Te Ching is the second most translated book after the Bible (250 times to Western languages ).

  7. BV Avatar
    BV

    >>I believe that Tao Te Ching is the second most translated book after the Bible (250 times to Western languages ).<< Wow! Didn't know that, wouldn't have guessed it. True story: I acquired my copy of the Tao Te Ching by rescuing it from a garbage can. That some nimrod would throw away such a classic demonstrates the low level of humanity. But I warn myself not to become a misanthrope.

  8. Dmitri Avatar
    Dmitri

    >>That some nimrod would throw away such a classic demonstrates the low level of humanity
    Had to look up “nimrod” as I knew only about Nimrod from the Bible. Re your warning to yourself — I don’t know… You take Benatar quite seriously, and, besides, looking around does not help much.
    I am honestly surprised by the force and amount of low level behaviour exhibited by a large chunk of humanity — and I am saying that as a person who thought he has a realistic and balanced view of human nature (not Kropotkin and not quite like Hobbes, but closer to the latter). But I did believe in the calm power of reason as a stronger force than the negative emotions, like hatred and envy etc., for the modern human. Not anymore. In particular I don’t believe now that humanity learns from history. Technological progress — yes sure we have that. But psychologically and morally humanity is definitely not better than the ancients or pre-Enlightenment people. Same or worse and with the aid of powerful technology (AI, nukes, bio weapons, hyper-surveillance) the situation is bound to become worth.

  9. Dmitri Avatar
    Dmitri

    worse, not worth.

  10. BV Avatar
    BV

    Dmitri,
    Your pessimism is justified. https://time.com/6554560/lesson-on-human-suffering-kibbutz-kfar-aza/
    And it is not as if we control technology; it remakes us in its image, and has a kind of life of its own. AI is a greater threat to humanity that DEI, and there is no stopping it.

  11. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    The real danger of “AI” lies in the fools who believe it, if you ask my opinion as a designer.
    “AI” is the golden calf of the new age; but idolatry is a very old sin. And “AI” is the chimera of all chimeras. Attempting to achieve it is extreme self-idolatry on the part of the people trying to create it, because intelligence is a gift to us from the Creator, and it is not in our power as creatures to give it. People trying to create it are trying to play God. It is appropriate that Apple inc.’s logo is an apple with a bite out of it, just like the apple offered by the snake to Eve in the garden. Just bite ! And the result is guaranteed to be evil.

  12. Dmitri Avatar
    Dmitri

    Bill
    I do follow the Middle East war and politics closely in a few languages. Including South African ridiculous genocide claim in The Hague. On a side note, there are news stories, not sure whether reliable, that the move is financed by the money of interested parties paid directly to debt ridden ANC to help it stay in power in forthcoming elections.
    See here for South African woes
    One thing is clear — humanity is balancing on a razor sharp edge falling from which to WW3 is probable. Demographics trends, illegal immigration, wokeism, mainstream media leftism and defeatism emboldening Russia and China and US antifa, economic decline of the militant among BRICS countries (with their “we have nothing to lose but our chains” mentality), weakening US leadership in the world and internally, spiralling US debt, continuing squeezing down of middle class — all these factors don’t favour neither the world stability nor the West’s easy victory if the war breaks out.
    Re point Joe makes on AI: AI is a tool like a hammer and a riffle and a nuke, but of course way stronger than the first two. AI can and will help with eliminating many boring and risky jobs people would be glad not to do, but if it falls in the wrong hands, just like a nuke, we are doomed. The big difference is that it is way easier for the bad actors to get hold of AI than of WMD. And that’s sad.

  13. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    Dmitri
    Humanity went from the Bel Epoque to the trench warfare of world war one very quickly.
    Thought I don’t think we are in any “beautiful time” now, we certainly could repeat the performance.
    The Baltimore Catechism of my youth (I still have a copy) said “Sin is the cause of all war,” and there is certainly a lot of sin around to be a cause. In my youth of the 1950s, the memory of WW2 was still very fresh, and that is why the adults of the time put the warning about what sin will cause, into my little grammar school book. They wanted all the 10 year old girls and boys to know it. And now, grammar schools, some of them, push “transgender” and child mutilation. At this point, the least that God can do, is to send us world war three, I think.
    God help us all.

  14. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    “Though” I don’t think we are in any beautiful time …
    Sorry or the typo.

  15. David Brightly Avatar

    A Happy New Year to you Bill.
    Apex, ridge, depression, spike, lip, edge, vertex, corner, bend, col, hollow, bulge, bay, cavity, hole. All these seem to be features, accidents if you will, of geometrical shapes. Some are general, some are tied more to shapes in certain kinds of matter, like land or sea. Why are holes troublesome, if the others are less so? The only distinction I can find is that ‘hole’ (hole in cheese, rather than hole in ground) is also a topological term. The other features, but not holes, can disappear from a shape under continuous deformation. There remain three holes in a tee-shirt shape no matter how much you stretch or shrink it.

  16. BV Avatar
    BV

    Happy New Year, David. Good to hear from you.
    I am not saying that holes are more troublesome than the other features you mention. And I see the distinction between a hole in a piece of cheese and a hole in the ground. I take it you would say that a hole in the ground is a depression.
    Questions for you: what is the difference between an apex and a vertex? Some apices are vertices, right?
    Define and distinguish mereology and topology. Your examples can be booked under ‘mereotopology.’
    Is a bulge in a carpet a geometrical shape, or does it have a geometrical shape?
    A bulge in a carpet is an accident of the carpet: that particular bulge cannot exist without that particular carpet, and the former depends for its existence on the latter, but not vice versa. Agree? The geometrical shape of the bulge, however, is not the same as the bulge: the shape is a universal, the bulge is a particular. Agree? I suspect you won’t. I suspect you are a nominalist like Buckner.

  17. David Brightly Avatar

    Hello Bill. Yes, I would say a hole in the ground is a depression or cavity. On a polyhedron a vertex is a point where three or more faces meet. An apex is a highest vertex, so our polyhedron has to be oriented with respect to some preferred direction.
    I am reluctant to identify a bulge in a carpet with a part of the carpet. One can remove the bulge without removing a part of the carpet. One merely changes the carpet’s shape, perhaps by stretching it, a carpet being somewhat flexible. I think of bulges and the rest as shapes within shapes, remaining in the abstract and avoiding having to delineate boundaries prematurely. One can picture a cube with one face bulging outward. It seems to me that we can think about a shape without having to have in mind a particular object with that shape. That probably makes me a platonist with respect to shapes. On the other hand, if I dig a hole in the ground and then fill it in with the spoil from digging a second hole, I would not want to say that the hole had moved. Cf, ‘holes’ in semiconductors. Does that make me a nominalist with respect to holes?
    My thought here is perhaps somewhat analogous to the suggestion we discussed briefly last year that the points on a line are better seen as places along the line rather than parts.

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