Footnotes to Plato from the foothills of the Superstition Mountains

The Grain Problem

Ed Buckner writes,

Here is another problem that needs to be carefully phrased.

I want to say that the pitch of a musical note is continuous through time. I mean, at any point in continuous time, i.e. time as specified by the real numbers, the pitch of the note (e.g. middle C) is the same.

However, the “physical” property that grounds the pitch is not continuous, but rather a cycle of different events.

That strikes me as a problem for the kind of physicalism according to which qualities “as we perceive them” are identical with the properties that ground them. For pitch is temporally continuous, the oscillation that grounds it is not temporally continuous, ergo etc.

It is a problem indeed, Ed, although I have questions about your formulation of it.

The problem is known in the trade as the Grain Problem. Whether it surfaces before Sir Arthur Eddington, I don't know, but he raises it, or at least anticipates it with his question about the 'two tables.'  A lot of work was done on the Grain Problem by the great American philosopher Wilfrid Sellars, son of the rather less distinguished Roy Wood Sellars, but nonetheless a quantity to be reckoned with in his day.

Sellars  Wilfrid IntentionalityHere is Sellars fils  in his seminal essay, "Philosophy and the Scientific Image of Man," reprinted in his Science, Perception, and Reality (Routledge, 1963). The portion I am about to quote is from pp. 35-37. I take the text from Chrucky's online version.

It is worth noting that we have here a recurrence of the essential features of Eddington's 'two tables' problem — the two tables being, in our terminology, the table of the manifest image and the table of the scientific image. There the problem was to 'fit together' the manifest table with the scientific table. Here the problem is to fit together the manifest sensation with its neurophysiological counterpart. And, interestingly enough, the problem in both cases is essentially the same: how to reconcile the ultimate homogeneity of the manifest image with the ultimate non-homogeneity of the system of scientific objects.

BV: Whether we are discussing colors with Sellars or sounds with Buckner, it is the same problem, that of reconciling the homogeneity of the manifest or phenomenal sensory quality with the non-homogeneity of the underlying  scientific explanatory posits. For Sellars, of course, these posits are not mere posits but ultimately real, as you will see if you read below the fold.

Buckner's formulation above leaves something to be desired, however. He cites the continuous perception over time of the same note, middle C, let us say. But then in the very next sentence he reverts to a rarefied mathematical concept of continuity, thereby mixing phenomenological description with a mathematico-scientific construct.   He thereby conflates phenomenal continuity with mathematical continuity.  When I hear middle C sounding from an organ, say, over a non-zero interval of time, five seconds say, do I hear a series of points of time — a series of temporally extension-less moments — the cardinality of which is 2-to-the-aleph-nought? No. (The cardinality of the set of real numbers (cardinality of the continuum) is

And then Ed goes on to say that "the 'physical' property that grounds the pitch is not continuous, but rather a cycle of different events." But that is not right either. Middle C depicted on an oscilloscope shows up as a sine wave:

Middle_C _or_262_hertz _on_a_virtual_oscilloscope

Obviously the sine wave is continuous. What Ed wants to say, of course, is that the heard sound, the phenomenal sound, does not fluctuate as does the physical reality does, the physical reality that "grounds the pitch." Ed is equivocating on 'continuous.'

But I know what he is getting at, and it is a genuine problem. I am merely complaining about his  formulation of it. Now back to Sellars, whose solution to the problem is not clear to me.

 

Now we are rejecting the view that the scientific image is a mere 'symbolic tool' for finding our way around in the manifest image; and we are accepting the view that the scientific account of the world is (in principle) the adequate image. Having, therefore, given the perceptible qualities of manifest objects their real locus in sensation we were confronted with the problem of choosing between dualism or identity with respect to the relation of conscious sensations to their analogues in the visual cortex, and the above argument seems to point clearly in the dualistic direction. The 'ultimate homogeneity' of perceptible qualities, which, among other things, prevented identifying the perceptible qualities of physical objects with complex properties of systems of physical particles, stands equally in the way of identifying, rather than correlating, conscious sensations with the complex neural processes with which they are obviously connected.

But such dualism is an unsatisfactory solution, because ex hypothesi sensations are essential to the explanation of how we come to construct the 'appearance' which is the manifest world. They are essential to the explanation of how there even seem to be coloured objects. But the scientific image presents itself as a closed system of explanation, and if the scientific image is interpreted as we have interpreted it up to this point the explanation will be in terms of the constructs of neurophysiology, which, according to the argument, do not involve the ultimate homogeneity, the appearance of which in the manifest image is to be explained.

We are confronted, therefore, by an antinomy, either, (a) the neurophysiological image is incomplete, i.e. and must be supplemented by new objects ('sense fields') which do have ultimate homogeneity and which somehow make their presence felt in the activity of the visual cortex as a system of physical particles; or, (b) the neurophysiological image is complete and the ultimate homogeneity of the sense qualities (and, hence, the sense qualities, themselves) is mere appearance in the very radical sense of not existing in the spatiotemporal world at all.

Is the situation irremediable? Does the assumption of the reality of the scientific image lead us to a dualism of particles and sense fields? of matter and 'consciousness'? If so, then, in view of the obviously intimate relation between sensation and conceptual thinking (for example, in perception), we must surely regress and take back the identification or conceptual thinking with neurophysiological process which seemed so plausible a moment ago. We could then Ague [argue] that although in the absence of other considerations it would be plausible to equate conceptual thinking with neurophysiological process, when the chips are all down, we must rather say that although conceptual thinking and neurophysiological process are each analogous to verbal behaviour as a public social phenomenon (the one by virtue of the very way in which the very notion of 'thinking' is formed; the other as a scientifically ascertained matter of fact), they are also merely analogous to one another and cannot be identified. If so, the manifest and the scientific conception of both sensations and conceptual thinking would fit into the synoptic view as parallel processes, a dualism which could only be avoided by interpreting the scientific image as a whole as a 'symbolic device' for coping with the world as it presents itself to us in the manifest image.

Is there any alternative? As long as the ultimate constituents of the scientific image are particles forming ever more complex systems of particles, we are inevitably confronted by the above choice. But the scientific image is not yet complete; we have not yet penetrated all the secrets of nature. And if it should turn out that particles instead of being the primitive entities of the scientific image could be treated as singularities in a space-time continuum which could be conceptually 'cut up' without significant loss – in inorganic contexts, at least – into interacting particles, then we would not be confronted at the level of neurophysiology with the problem of understanding the relation of sensory consciousness (with its ultimate homogeneity) to systems of particles. Rather, we would have the alternative of saying that although for many purposes the central nervous system can be construed without loss as a complex system of physical particles, when it comes to an adequate understanding of the relation of sensory consciousness to neurophysiological process, we must penetrate to the non-particulate foundation of the particulate image, and recognize that in this non-particulate image the qualities of sense are a dimension of natural process which occurs only in connection with those complex physical processes which, when 'cut-up' into particles in terms of those features which are the least common denominators of physical process — present in inorganic as well as organic processes alike — become the complex system of particles which, in the current scientific image, is the central nervous system.

 


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14 responses to “The Grain Problem”

  1. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    Perceiving the note “Concert A” from an oscillation in the air of 440 cycles per second is proof positive that our minds are outside of time, that they transcend the present moment. So I think, anyway.

  2. oz Avatar
    oz

    The Sellars stuff is good, thanks.
    >Obviously the sine wave is continuous.
    The example I gave by email was a square wave, which is eminently discontinuous!
    >He thereby conflates phenomenal continuity with mathematical continuity.
    We Aristotelians think of continuity in terms of potential infinity. Phenomenal continuity is simply having no ‘gaps’. When the clock ticks, there is a discontinuity between the ticks and the silent gaps in between. If we increase the ticking to a frequency of about 27Hz, then there is a step change. The ticking disappears, and we hear a continuous note, A0, which some basses can actually sing. No gap, no ticks.
    But there is no such step change in the physics. Simply a faster ticking.
    (Obviously a Cantorean will think of a line as a set – an uncountable set – of points, and so there is a multiplicity in the Cantorean conception of the line that is simply not there in the phenomenon. But mathematics does not have to be Cantorean. Aristotelians do not agree with Cantor, nor as we know does Cantor agree with Aristotelians).
    In other words, with the emergence of a musical note or pitch, there is something happening at the phenomenal level that simply is not happening at the physical level. Or rather, that kind of emergence is what defines the distinction between phenomenal and physical.

  3. oz Avatar
    oz

    PS The term “manifest image” needs a proper context, which can be found here

  4. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    Thanks for the link to the low notes, Bro Bill. Here’s more (See you raise you lower you); Russian choral music especially has the very low notes. Enjoy:
    https://www.oktavism.com/
    And
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW0QbUC0cEU

  5. BV Avatar
    BV

    Oz,
    I will grant you one thing: there is a serious debate between the proponents of actual infinity and those of potential infinity.
    I still say you are muddled about continuity. What exactly do you mean by it? ‘Homogeneity’ may be the word you want.
    It may also be that you are not engaging the Grain Problem at all as contemporary analytic philosophers such as Wm Lycan and your man Robinson understand it.
    Where did you get the problem you mention in your e-mail reproduced above? For that matter, where did you get your mirror problem? And I continue to insist that while ‘behind the mirror’ has a use in standard English, you cannot use that phrase to mean ‘in the mirror.’ This is simply a matter of ordinary language analysis.

  6. oz the ostrich Avatar
    oz the ostrich

    By continuous I mean having no gaps. ‘Homogeneous’ means something else.
    Aristotle “Continuous are those things whose limit, at which they touch, is one”. If the limits are not one, there will be a gap
    >And I continue to insist that while ‘behind the mirror’ has a use in standard English, you cannot use that phrase to mean ‘in the mirror.’
    I mean strictly behind the mirror. I can locate the image as follows. Place a mirror perpendicular to piece of paper. Place an object in front of the mirror. Place two pins A and B in front of the mirror so that they ‘line up’ with the mirror image, i.e. so that the image, and the pins lie on the same line of sight. Then do the same with another two pins C and D.
    Finally, remove the mirror and extend the line AB to behind where the mirror was, and similarly with CD. You will find that AB and CD converge at a point behind the mirror.
    This is a standard experiment that used to be performed in all schools in the UK. I’m surprised you are surprised by it.
    >Where did you get the problem you mention in your e-mail reproduced above? For that matter, where did you get your mirror problem?
    I think the emergence of ‘phenomenal pitch’ is a neat way of proving the phenomenal nature of sound. It is another standard 19th century example. Rayleigh gives a nice account.
    The mirror example is from schoolbook optics, as I said.
    I’m not sure what ‘in the mirror’ means. ‘In’ implies a closed surface or a container, but a mirror (outside fairgrounds) is usually a plane surface.

  7. oz the ostrich Avatar
    oz the ostrich

    >Thanks for the link to the low notes, Bro Bill.
    Hey Joe (!) that was my link, not Bill’s

  8. oz the ostrich Avatar
    oz the ostrich

    PS see this https://www.physicsclassroom.com/reviews/Reflection-and-Mirrors/Reflection-and-Mirrors-Review-Answers-2
    “A is true; virtual images are always located behind the mirror”.

  9. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    At the 6 minute mark and following in this fascinating video, there is shown a mechanical device which automatically add up different sine waves to get their composite wave. This is continuity from many sources.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgF3OX8nT0w

  10. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    Oops, sorry, Oz ! Here’s some Dobro with some low notes, to hopefully make it up.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMkeD2sUlR4

  11. oz Avatar
    oz

    >Oops, sorry, Oz ! Here’s some Dobro with some low notes, to hopefully make it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMkeD2sUlR4
    < Thank you Joe I loved that! In return, and claiming victory in the very low note competition, see this 32' Untersatz in the pedal playing a C0 (15Hz) which literally shakes the church windows! https://youtu.be/FwHI3l06ack?t=897.
    Oh yes, Bill, see this Octobass https://www.ludwig-van.com/toronto/2015/05/20/cool-stuff-8-the-octobass-an-instrument-capable-of-playing-below-human-hearing-range/. “There are only two originals in the world, with one found at the Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix, Arizona“.

  12. Joe Odegaard Avatar

    The mirrored object is not always “behind” the mirror; two parabolic mirrors will project an image into the space in front of them:
    https://www.physics.wisc.edu/ingersollmuseum/exhibits/opticscolor/parabolicmirrorillusion/
    And
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbBQ1vK0ELo

  13. Tom Tillett Avatar
    Tom Tillett

    I am unclear as well as to Sellar’s resolution of the problem. However, his reference to the central nervous system in his convoluted alternative solution appears to be something in the neighborhood of what FA Hayek proposed in The Sensory Order. Written almost a decade before this Sellars excerpt, The Sensory Order has been cited numerous times in neurophysiological papers and publications right up to the present day. Although a scientific treatment of the subject, Hayek deals in some very nuanced philosophy and philosophy of science.
    Hayek holds to a hard duality b/t distinct orders of categorizing and relating things, the phenomenal sensory order of qualities (colors, sound, etc.), and the physical order of science. Neither is more real than the other; Hayek specifically rejects the notion of “real” in this context as meaningless. They are instead overlapping orders, with only relative or partial similarities in how they image the relationships in the world.
    He reconciles the two orders with a complex theory of what the central nervous system must be like in order to account for the partial correspondences between the two. In brief, the central nervous system collects impulses engendered by the external world into multiple classes based on the status of the nervous system as a whole with all its inputs, impulses, and feedback over time. It is the connected relations between these different classes in the nervous system that correspond in a one-to-one topological or isomorphic sense with the connected relations between the phenomenal sensory qualities.
    The partial correspondence between the experience of sensory qualities and the external physical world is accounted for, then, by the adaptation of the classification process of the central nervous system over evolutionary time, permitting an organism to “behave appropriately towards its surroundings.”
    I fail to capture the depth of description and justification Hayek offers for his picture of the central nervous system. But suffice it to say that, epistemologically, Hayek is asserting that sensory experience is fundamentally relational and conceptual. As the Introduction says: “[Hayek’s] theory may be said to substantiate Goethe’s famous maxim ‘all that is factual is already theory’ for the field of sensory and other psychological phenomena … The qualities which we attribute to the experienced objects are, strictly speaking, not properties of objects at all, but a set of relations by which our nervous system classifies them.”
    The experiential continuity of Ed’s musical note and the homogenous nature of Sellar’s manifest image are accounted for, then, by the classification/abstraction activity of the central nervous system, which itself is an adaptive response to Sellar’s particulate, scientific image of the world.
    Hayek’s rendition of all of this is compelling, for me at least. But I am still not sold. There is an absolute or intrinsic nature to the conscious, intentional experience that is lost, even if the relations between all sensory qualities and physical events could be established. Additionally, Hayek’s is an evolutionary account, which makes it susceptible to the sort of objections found in Plantinga and others that adaptive behavior can correspond just as well with false beliefs as true ones.

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