Prayer: A Fall-Back Position

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14 responses to “Prayer: A Fall-Back Position”

1. 

   Vito B. Caiati

   January 30, 2024

   With regard to non-petitionary prayer to God, you write: “Of course, I won’t be able to engage in this sort of aspirational prayer unless I sincerely believe that the object of my worship, love, and aspiration exists.”
   Question: Could not someone who is agnostic on the question of God’s existence engage in such prayer? I am thinking of a person who has sincerely studied and pondered this matter, but, although unable to affirm intellectually a theistic position, is infused with the hope that God does in fact exist. His prayer would consist, along with a reflection on the glorious and beneficent nature of this possible God, in the supplication for the coming of faith. It is the prayer of a person uneasy in his doubt.

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2. 

   Vlastimil

   January 30, 2024

   I just realized I wrote a paper on how focusing on God (in contemplation or prayer) is a regal way to happiness.
   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-DJkyH5e-N-O29lpgPcCNMedCq6hzJpn/view?usp=sharing

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3. 

   BV

   January 30, 2024

   That’s a good comment, Vito, and I think that “I won’t be able to engage in this sort of aspirational prayer unless I sincerely believe that the object of my worship, love, and aspiration exists” ought to be replaced by “I won’t be able to engage in this sort of aspirational prayer unless I sincerely believe that the object of my worship, love, and aspiration exists OR sincerely believe in the possibility that this object exists.”
   Aspirational prayer is psychologically impossible for me if I believe that God does not exist. But that I believe that God does exist is not required for aspirational prayer. What is required is that I seek God thereby taking seriously the possibility that God exists.
   A lot depends on what belief in God comes to. I suggest that one believes in God only if one acts as if God exists. By ‘act’ I do not mean act in the manner of an actor on a stage, but act in the sense of behave. Genuine belief is manifested in how one lives day by day.

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4. 

   Elliott

   January 31, 2024

   Thanks for the interesting post, Bill.
   >>Petitionary prayer for another, whether for material or spiritual goods, falls under the rubric ‘intercessory prayer’ which is good for the one who prays whether or not God exists.<< I agree that petitionary prayer for another’s benefit falls under the rubric 'intercessory prayer.' I have long been puzzled by imprecatory prayers. Consider Psalm 109. Verses 8-10 indicate the imprecatory tone of the chapter. “May his days be few; may another take his position. May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. May his children wander as beggars, seeking sustenance far from their ruined homes.” https://biblehub.com/psalms/109.htm
   If praying for another’s benefit is good for the one who prays, is praying for another’s harm bad for the one who prays? And isn’t imprecatory prayer against human enemies inconsistent with Matthew 5:44?
   “But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (NIV)
   “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.” (KJV)

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5. 

   BV

   January 31, 2024

   Great comment, Elliot: it forces me to think about something I haven’t thought about, imprecatory prayer. The Psalms are rich and deep, but also troubling as in Psalm 109.
   >>If praying for another’s benefit is good for the one who prays, is praying for another’s harm bad for the one who prays?<< I am inclined to say yes -- whether or not God exists. Why? Because I am polluting my mind with negative thoughts. Also: if I pray that an enemy suffer, be tortured, etc., to who am I praying? The God of Love? If I pray for another's harm, I may, unbeknownst to myself, be invoking such preternatural beings as demons and whatever else may be lurking in that penumbral region betwixt the natural and the supernatural. Highly imprudent to mess with these entities who can be expected to be a lot more powerful than we are! >>And isn’t imprecatory prayer against human enemies inconsistent with Matthew 5:44?<< It would seem so. Herein an argument for the superiority of Xianity over Judaism. There is something troublingly tribal about the Old Testament. Yahweh comes across in the Psalms and elsewhere as the tribal god of the Jews, the personification of their will to power.

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6. 

   Malcolm Pollack

   January 31, 2024

   Vito and Bill,
   Thank you for the exchange in the first two comments.

   “I am thinking of a person who has sincerely studied and pondered this matter, but, although unable to affirm intellectually a theistic position, is infused with the hope that God does in fact exist. His prayer would consist, along with a reflection on the glorious and beneficent nature of this possible God, in the supplication for the coming of faith. It is the prayer of a person uneasy in his doubt.”

   That’s me.

   “The immortality of the soul is a matter which is of so great consequence to us, and which touches us so profoundly, that we must have lost all feeling to be indifferent as to knowing what it is. All our actions and thoughts must take such different courses, according as there are or are not eternal joys to hope for, that it is impossible to take one step with sense and judgment, unless we regulate our course by our view of this point which ought to be our ultimate end.
   Thus our first interest and our first duty is to enlighten ourselves on this subject, whereon depends all our conduct. Therefore among those who do not believe, I make a vast difference between those who strive with all their power to inform themselves, and those who live without troubling or thinking about it.
   I can have only compassion for those who sincerely bewail their doubt, who regard it as the greatest of misfortunes, and who, sparing no effort to escape it, make of this inquiry their principal and most serious occupations.”
   – Pascal

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7. 

   BV

   January 31, 2024

   Thanks for the quotation, Malcolm. Vito and I are both great admirers of Pascal, although Vito has the advantage of being able to read him in the original.

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8. 

   Joe Odegaard

   January 31, 2024

   Here is a poem written from the point of view of someone who tried to flee from God, but eventually believed:
   http://www.houndofheaven.com/poem

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9. 

   BV

   January 31, 2024

   Elliot,
   You asked: >>And isn’t imprecatory prayer against human enemies inconsistent with Matthew 5:44?<< Imprecatory prayer against demonic enemies seems consistent with NT teaching, but even this is not altogether clear. Suppose I pray that Satan and his legions be annihilated. Would it not be more in keeping with NT teaching that I pray that Satan & Co. experience metanoia?
   As for human enemies, >>Paul prayed imprecatory prayers: “If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!” (1 Cor. 16:22) “If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed” (Gal 1:9).<< See here: https://praypsalms.org/22-reasons-to-pray-the-cursing-psalms-b4a85ae40aa9

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10. 

    Elliott

    January 31, 2024

    I agree with your reply, Bill. Imprecatory prayer seems incompatible with Christianity.
    >>Because I am polluting my mind with negative thoughts.<< I'm reminded of Proverbs 4:23, which strikes me a wise advice. We should guard our minds with all diligence. https://biblehub.com/proverbs/4-23.htm
    >>Also: if I pray that an enemy suffer, be tortured, etc., to who am I praying? The God of Love?<< >>Herein an argument for the superiority of Xianity over Judaism. There is something troublingly tribal about the Old Testament.<< Now, I'm reminded of the difficult question of whether or not Christians and adherents of other monotheistic religions worship (pray to, etc.) the same God. Re: religious tribalism, I'm concerned that many folks who call themselves Christians have a tribalistic view of a deity who supports them and others in their group and is willing to smite the enemies of the group.

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11. 

    BV

    January 31, 2024

    I speak of our political opponents on the Left as enemies. Alejandro Mayorkas is a prime example. Although I have no doubt that he is an evil-doer, I would not pray that he be harmed. If I were to pray about him at all, I would pray that he be impeached and removed from office. This outcome would not harm him, but improve him, by stopping him from perpetrating the evils he is now perpetrating. I will not pray that he drop dead even though this would be good for the country. Would I take pleasure in his dropping dead? I hope not. That would be schadenfreude; I have come out against it on numerous occasions over the years. But I would take pleasure at the good things that would accrue to the country should Mayorkas drop dead or be killed.

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12. 

    BV

    January 31, 2024

    I want Mayorkas politically dead.
    But would I pray for this upshot? I have a certain aversion to praying for mundane matters that are in our power, individually or collectively, to bring about. Prayer should elevate us, not drag God down to our miserably mundane level.
    For example, I do not pray for my daily bread, where ‘daily bread’ covers all the comestibles I need to maintain my body. I buy such things at the supermarket or I grow them in my garden.
    See here for more on this topic: https://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2019/04/give-us-this-day-our-daily-bread.html

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13. 

    Joe Odegaard

    January 31, 2024

    I had an architecture client who was a prison RN. His attitude was that some people need to go to prison, for it is only there that they have a practical chance at salvation. I would pray that Mayorkas ends up there, and others too, Hillary and Obama included, though there seems little chance of their going there.

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14. 

    Elliott

    January 31, 2024

    Bill, I believe that it’s wise to recognize enemies as the enemies they are and to speak of them as enemies. It would be foolish to pretend that the world is all rainbows, roses, and butterflies and that there are no persons who want to do us harm. (It seems there are some folks who are unable to admit the existence of evil people who seek to harm others.*) Indeed, to love one’s enemies despite their enmity requires one to recognize them as enemies.
    I agree that a bad person’s being removed from office improves the bad person and improves conditions for those being harmed by that person’s misuse of office. For example, a thoughtful and loving prayer that a corrupt or weak president loses the next election does not count as an imprecatory prayer.
    Such prayer would need to be guided by wisdom. I doubt that God would override the free votes of free voters in order to obtain a desired election result; i.e., God would not manipulate us like a bunch of puppets, coercing us to vote in divinely determined ways. But God can (non-coercively) work to help enough voters to get smart about the matters up for election and freely vote accordingly. It seems to me that a wise person would pray with such factors in mind.
    *It seems to me that there are naive people who commit something like an ought-is fallacy. Reversing the is-ought fallacy, they reason that since we all ought to get along and love one another, it follows that we do in fact do so. If the evidence indicates otherwise, they conveniently ignore it or explain it away.

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