Footnotes to Plato from the foothills of the Superstition Mountains

Can a Necessary Being Depend for its Existence on a Necessary Being?

Brian Bosse raised this question over the phone the other day. This re-post from February 2010 answers it.

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According to the Athanasian Creed, the Persons of the Trinity, though each of them uncreated and eternal and necessary, are related as follows. The Father is unbegotten.  The Son is begotten by the Father, but not made by the Father.  The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.  Let us focus on the relation of the Father to the Son.  When I tried to explain this to Peter the atheist, he balked at the idea of one necessary being begetting another, claiming that the idea makes no sense.  One of his arguments was as follows.  If x begets y, then x causes y to begin to exist.  But no necessary being begins to exist.  So, no necessary being is begotten.  A second argument went like this.  Begetting is a causal notion.  But causes are temporally precedent to their effects.  No two necessary beings are related as before to after.  Therefore, no necessary being begets another.

I first pointed out in response to Peter that the begetting in question is not the begetting of one animal by another, but a begetting in a different sense, and that whatever else this idea involves, it involves the idea of one necessary being depending for its existence on another.  Peter balked at this idea as well.  "How can a necessary being depend for its existence on a necessary being?"  To soften him up, I looked for a non-Trinitarian case in which a necessary being stands in the asymmetrical relation of existential dependency to a necessary being. Note that I did not dismiss his problem the way a dogmatist might; I admitted that it is a genuine difficulty, one that needs to be solved.

So I said to Peter:  Look, you accept the existence of Fregean propositions, items which Frege viewed as the senses of sentences in the indicative mood from which indexical elements (including the tenses of verbs) have been removed and have been replaced with non-indexical elements.  You also accept that at least some of these Fregean propositions, if not all,  are necessary beings.  For example, you accept that the proposition expressed by '7 + 5 = 12' is necessarily true, and you see that this requires that the proposition be necessarily existent.  Peter agreed to that.

You also, I said to him, have no objection to the idea of the God of classical theism who exists necessarily if he is so much as possible.  He admitted that despite his being an atheist, he has no problem with the idea of a necessarily existent God.

So I said to Peter:  Think of the necessarily existent Fregean propositions as divine thoughts.  (I note en passant that Frege referred to his propositions as Gedanken, thoughts.)  More precisely, think of them as the accusatives or objects of divine acts of thinking, as the noemata of divine noeses.  That is, think of the propositions as existing precisely as the  accusatives of divine thinking.  Thus, their esse is their concipi by God.  They don't exist a se the way God does; they exist in a mind-dependent manner without prejudice to their existing in all possible worlds.  To cop a phrase from the doctor angelicus, they have their necessity from another, unlike God, who has his necessity from himself.

So I said to Peter:  Well, is it not now clear that we  have a non-Trinitarian example in which a necessary being, the proposition expressed by '7 + 5 = 12,' depends for its existence on a necessary being, namely God, and not vice versa?  Is this not an example of a relation that is neither merely logical (like entailment) nor empirically-causal?  Does this not get you at least part of the way towards an understand of how the Father can be said to beget the Son?

To these three questions, Peter gave a resounding 'No!' looked at his watch and announced that he had to leave right away in order to be able to teach his 5:40 class at the other end of the Valle del Sol.


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10 responses to “Can a Necessary Being Depend for its Existence on a Necessary Being?”

  1. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Hi Bill,
    I’m not disputing or critiquing your post, but wondering if there is a different way of understanding the creeds that might respond to the question of a necessary being as the cause of another necessary being.
    All the early creeds affirm that the is one necessary being. The language of begetting and proceeding are used to also affirm the concrete reality, and the distinction of each of the three persons. As to relating to being,one; as to relating to persons,three.
    There is a common way of assuming that a person is a being, but in this case the statements at least attempt to uphold the distinction between them.
    If one holds to some broad sense of realism, then for instance, there is one human nature and many persons that participate in that nature. As perhaps an analogy of what is being said in the creeds, one being, one divine nature, three persons united in that one nature.
    We may lack complete understanding of what is being stated in the creeds, but what is not being stated is that a necessary being begets another necessary being.
    In any event, I have been following your blog for most of the last nineteen years with appreciation, so thanks for being so ‘persistent’.
    Mike

  2. Elliott Avatar
    Elliott

    Here’s a quick point.
    I don’t at the moment have any problem with a necessary being depending on another necessary being. If a necessary being is one that exists in all possible worlds, then it seems plausible to think that one being can depend on another, and that each being and the dependence relation between them exists in all possible worlds.
    I do, however, wonder about the idea that one divine person depends for its existence on another. If aseity is an essential feature of being divine, then the idea that the Son is begotten by the Father suggests that the Son lacks aseity and thus lacks divinity. Even if the Son is uncreated, eternal, and necessary, if the Son lacks aseity, it seems that the Son is not divine and, moreover, is ontologically and axiologically subordinate.
    I hope to write more on this topic later today or this weekend.

  3. BV Avatar
    BV

    You raise a good question, Elliot. The first thing I would say in response is that the dependency of the Son the Father is sui generis, and therefore has no perfectly adequate model. At best, our approach to it is analogical. To soften up my atheist erstwhile friend — erstwhile because he lost his mind over Trump — I mentioned the dependence of necessarily existent divine thought-contents on God.
    No God, no necessary truths. And vice versa. But if per impossibile God did not exist, then truth would not exist either. Truth depends on God and not the other way around despite their necessary biconditional relationship. God is the source of truth. But the Father is not the source of the Son in exactly the same sense. Hence my talk of divine begetting as sui generis. That is, it is unique, which implies that our intellects cannot penetrate it in such a way as to render it fully intelligible.
    There is one God, not three. One God in three divine persons. The one God is *a se.* If each of the persons were *a se*, each would be an absolute, but there can be only one Absolute. Ultimately, the Trinity does not make sense to the discursive intellect. We can argue to it, but we cannot comprehend it. Similarly with divine simplicity. The Absolute must be ontologically simple. But there is no way to make sense of DS in terms finally satisfactory to the discursive intellect.

  4. Elliott Avatar
    Elliott

    Thanks, Bill.
    I see no problem with your point about the dependence of necessarily existent divine thought-contents on God. It seems to me that a necessary being can depend ontologically on another necessary being.
    You’re right that there can be only one absolute. Yet I still worry about the idea that the Son is subordinate to the Father. There’s no problem with the idea that the Son in his human nature is subordinate to the Father. But why is the Son subordinate in his divine nature?
    Moreover, since there can be only one Absolute, and that Absolute is the Trinitarian God (let us suppose), then none of the divine persons are absolute. Why, then, are any of the members of the Trinity subordinate to any other member?

  5. BV Avatar
    BV

    Mike,
    Thank you for following my blog for so long. You write:
    >>there is one human nature and many persons that participate in that nature. As perhaps an analogy of what is being said in the creeds, one being, one divine nature, three persons united in that one nature.<< That is OK as far as it goes, except that the Persons do not participate in the divine nature, strictly speaking. >>We may lack complete understanding of what is being stated in the creeds, but what is not being stated is that a necessary being begets another necessary being.<< Well, you won't find that language in the creeds. Are you suggesting that either the Father or the Son are contingent? Surely neither are. Or perhaps you object to referring to Father and Son as beings? It is not clear why you say what I quoted you as saying.

  6. Elliott Avatar
    Elliott

    “There is one God … in three divine persons. The one God is *a se.* If each of the persons were *a se*, each would be an absolute, but there can be only one Absolute. Ultimately, the Trinity does not make sense to the discursive intellect. We can argue to it, but we cannot comprehend it.”
    Your comment is relevant to the topic I wanted to address when I wrote that I’d try to say more later.
    The Doctrine of the Trinity (DoT) and the Doctrine of Aseity (DoA) seem incompatible with each other. According to the DoT, God is one being eternally existing in three divine persons. According to the DoA, God exists *a se*.
    Here’s the apparent problem, as I seem to see it. The existence of the Trinitarian God seems to depend on the existence of the three members of the Trinity. If God is necessarily trinitarian in nature, then God can’t exist without the three divine members. It seems, then, that God’s existence depends on the existence of each member of the Trinity, which seems to threaten God’s aseity –- that is, unless the members are essential to God such that to say that God exists from himself is to say that God exists from the trio of divine members, which is what God is.
    But then new questions arise. If the members of the Trinity lack aseity, and God’s existence depends on the members, how does God have aseity? Whence the aseity? It seems that God ontologically depends on three divine members, each of whom lacks aseity. How can the *a se* Absolute depend on three persons, none of whom are absolute and each of whom lacks aseity?
    Please note that I’m not saying there is a problem here, but only that with respect to the points above, there seems to be one. There might well be a consistent way to solve this problem or to avoid it in the first place. Perhaps there is an answer that transcends human ken — or at least goes beyond mine. I am merely pointing out what seems to be a problem from my limited perspective. I am not prepared *hic et nunc* to assert that the DoT and the DoA are, in fact, logically inconsistent.
    Note also that I’m making moves of mereology. One might question these moves. Is a divine whole dependent on its parts? Is it right to think of the Trinity in mereological terms? If God is ontologically simple, it seems that God has no ontological (proper) parts and hence the Trinity wouldn’t properly be parts of God.

  7. Dominik Kowalski Avatar
    Dominik Kowalski

    The biggest issue in Thesen discussions is a conflation of what Thomas meant by necessity, and what Leibniz said. A necessary of the first kind possesses aseity, absolute independent existence, the latter needn’t. Whether something exists in every possible world says nothing about whether it exists dependently or independently. The Nous in Platonism exists at all times and in every world, and yet its existence still comes from another.
    The confusion is still highly prevalent even in top notch philosophers. Graham Oppy for example accepts a necessary being in his ontology, the initial singularity from which the universe as we know it comes. In Aristotelian fashion, modality branches off of this singularity and its properties. Obviously the necessary being isn’t anymore (except if we’re monists), but at the very least it changes. I trust the readers here to know why this doesn’t fit the bill of a necessary being as Thomas and Bill here define it

  8. BV Avatar
    BV

    >> Whether something exists in every possible world says nothing about whether it exists dependently or independently.<< Right.

  9. BV Avatar
    BV

    Elliot,
    >>Is a divine whole dependent on its parts? Is it right to think of the Trinity in mereological terms? If God is ontologically simple, it seems that God has no ontological (proper) parts and hence the Trinity wouldn’t properly be parts of God.<< I think it is clear that the triune God cannot be thought of in mereological terms. God is absolutely unique in his mode of unity and so cannot be thought of as built up out of parts. God is that Unity than which no tighter unity is conceivable. Mereological sums have a unity that is the loosest there is. Set-theoretic unity is in-between, but of course God cannot be set. We have no model for the unity of God, the oneness of the One; it lies beyond our power to conceptualize. What then should we say about the Persons. Try this heresy on for size: the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost are three ways God appears to us. AN SICH, God is not three-in-one; God is three only FUER UNS. Now read what Tuggy has to say about modalism: https://trinities.org/blog/what-is-modalism/

  10. Elliott Avatar
    Elliott

    “the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost are three ways God appears to us.” Yes, that’s modalism.
    Apparently, it’s not clear to all philosophical theologians that the triune God can’t be thought of in mereological terms. W. L. Craig and J. P. Moreland have proposed and defended a mereological view of the triune God. (See Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, 1st Edition, 2003, pp. 589-595.)
    For example:
    “This suggests that we could think of the persons of the Trinity as divine because they are parts of the Trinity, that is, parts of God. Now obviously, the persons are not parts of God in the sense in which a skeleton is part of a cat; but given that the Father, for example, is not the whole Godhead, it seems undeniable that there is some sort of part-whole relation obtaining between the persons of the Trinity and the entire Godhead.” (p. 591)
    “The Latin church father Hilary seems to capture the idea nicely when he asserts, ‘Each divine person is in the Unity, yet no person is the one God’ (On the Trinity 7.2; cf. 7.13, 32).” (p. 591)

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